Equipment prices, the economy, exchange rates and the future

Shoot the breeze and stay in the loop with the unhinged and unhooked word on the street.
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timba14
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:46 am

yes it will be nice having a proper kitesurf shop again in the Hove area.

what are they going to do with all those croc's though ?
marktward
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:49 pm

Then when it does turn you have a strong loyal customer base.
Loyal customer base....now there's an interesting concept!

Mark
Living and playing in a very very cold Scotland
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waverider
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:17 pm

marktward wrote: Loyal customer base....now there's an interesting concept!
Just thinking exactly the same. Occasional 'blind-loyalty' yes, "Loyal customer base" suggests buyers ignoring a better deal elsewhere.
marktward
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:02 pm

Actually old chap, its really a bit like that advert when the bank manager explains to the punter that the initial introduction rate of a good deal was like putting bait on the hook, and once you have caught them, you put them in the keep net. Reality is you can't do that with customers. You give them a good deal to get them started, and may even continue to do a reasonable 'loyalty' discount, but some other shop offers a slightly better...can we catch you type deal and their loyalty goes else where...guess thats called being in the game...competition......well talking of competition, whilst we're on the subject....sometimes the loyalty of even supported riders is only as good as the next deal that comes along offering free kites as opposed to discounted kites, or free kites plus a bit of entry fee support as a progression....

At the end of the day its a young sport finding its way. Some of the guys that have obviously been around for a long time as they have been in the windsurfing game long before this sport became popular. These guys I think know how best to ride things out and good on them. They have seen it all before so are not too shocked at some of the things the new entrants to such a market have discovered.

At the end of the (next) day, the current economic situation regarding global meltdown and the $ v £ are things that are here and have to be coped with. There will be survivors and casualties. The survivors will generally come through it stronger, but once the economic climate starts improving, there will inevitably be newcmmers in the market again.

The parallel thread going on about the bike industry compared to this as in mountain bike riders don't seem to bitch as much as kitesurfers about costs, is an interesting and valid thread. I think the interesting comment in that comparisson is that the kitsurfing public expect to purchase top quality kit at cheap shite type manufacturing prices. In larger sports, like biking, the genreal participant recognises that they have a choice of buying a reasonable bit of kit for say £800, or something that essentially does the same for £5000. Its their choice, and they can have virtually anything they want in between, or even a £150 special that will still get them from a-b. And as such they can buy what they can afford without whinging about how much the importer, factory, distributor is making. Kitesurfing hasn't reached that level of maturity with regard to variety, quality of that variety, and pricing structures that reflect that.

In this sport there has always been that group of people that get upset at the fact that some people are actually making a wedge out of this sport, and believe that those that are 'only in it for the money' should be landlocked and castrated for daring to make money out of something that should be given to them at no cost so they can have cheap fun. If there were as many people kitesurfing as riding mountain bikes there would probably be a variety of kit available at different costs to suit everyone's wallet, but unfortunately everyone would then be bitching all the time about how crowded the water is with all these 'newbies' getting in the way....which in itself is quite funny seeing as there is more water than land on this wonderful planet!

sorry folks....just had a few words to use up!

Mark
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:27 pm

CoNaN wrote:
GRF wrote:
at least the internet's not gonna close
Open to trading up your kite as part of the deal on the next £1200 one then is it?
what taking my kite at a cut price deal as a trade in and then flogging it with another 150 on top ? i can do that myself
(All kites we take in part exchange we sell at the same price or take a hit on them!!)

Interested in helping you exchange the busted buckle on your warrior 2 harness?
no, and neither were any of the shops, I (We have all of ours being replaced give us a call i can get this sorted for you not a problem...(01202 738448) ask for me or Justin

There to teach enough newcomers to buy your last years kit so you can get new stuff?
id rather give the sudents to my mate Dave Sands, at least i know that hes a decent instructor and if i send them to him direct. I know that they will have a decent lesson and wont get fobbed off with shite, ive seen it too many times and its always the instructor who gets the flack not the shop owner who is never there to explain stuff to the clients.
We NEVER let a student go without finishing he/her course if they do not come back they do not get the card this is very important to us as we want to get them on the water ASAP

The internet store offering employment for local rider/instructors?
no but there was no employment for experienced instructors in the shops either, why, cos we actually asked for a decent percentage of the £40 per hour per person per hour that was the gong rate when i taught seeing as the wind is so fickle here ont he south coast. instead they shipped in rookie instructors so they could keep paying them £12 ph before "charges" so all the long term local instructors had to give up and go find a real job to make enough money to live. oh an then a certain shop in hove waited till it was time to pay up and then shafted its instructors and f*cked off. if that is the pheonix then i will be first in the door to welcome that little fucker, (lol love the bit at the end.... Good instructors are always wanted for any decent kitesurf shop and if any let the good ones go... there loss good instructors = good kit sales...)

Ready to deal with the local council in order to secure or protect beach rights?

Nope but if you have a look on the forum we are dealing with this ourselves afaik none of the local shops have ever bothered to try to do anything with lancing, shoreham in the beginning (4-5 years ago) maybe cos there was a buisness interest there. (Hey happy to help out come and see us tell us what you need)

You might not have a store in your locale right now, but you can bet your socks internet driven sales didn't exactly protect whatever may or may not have been in place in the past, nor did any of these direct sell operators with no back up school support.


I don't want to get into a big argument on this one but as u can see am pretty disillusioned with shops... they open expect us all to flock and support and then return f*ck all, well thats the pattern in this area, it may be totaly different in other areas, and bonda, when working in shops i have seen certain brands of kites punted out with a 50% markup, granted this was 4 or 5 years ago and this may be different now but i cant imagine that it would have changed too much
I no longer look at shops through rose tinted specs, I work hard for my money, i want a good result for it and in my experience shops have never justified the extra expense. I would be over the moon if one could please prove me wrong

rant over
we'll give it good go for sure..... history has been bad for kitesurf shops in Brighton but the trade has been there so..... let see...
Angelo
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M Shinn
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 8:58 pm

I'm don't live in the UK so I guess I am out of the loop but GRP....

I have NO IDEA what you are talking about!!!!!!!!

I suspect there is a history here that others may understand but......................

Local shops.... it's good.

Internet sales......... it's not going to go away so wether you like it or not there is nothing to be done.

The future of kiteboarding prices......... let's see!
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kev ob
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Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:54 pm

M Shinn wrote:I'm don't live in the UK so I guess I am out of the loop but GRP....

I have NO IDEA what you are talking about!!!!!!!!

I suspect there is a history here that others may understand but......................

Local shops.... it's good.

Internet sales......... it's not going to go away so wether you like it or not there is nothing to be done.

The future of kiteboarding prices......... let's see!
hey mark
has teneriffe been hit with the current economic climate or is it business as usual ?
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dbinit
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Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:21 am

A couple of real interesting points raised here . Great thread...
Open to trading up your kite as part of the deal on the next £1200 one then is it?
what taking my kite at a cut price deal as a trade in and then flogging it with another 150 on top ? i can do that myself
banned wrote:(All kites we take in part exchange we sell at the same price or take a hit on them!!)
My good old "friend" banned is spot on here, and probably underselling trade in deals. What many consumers forget is that when a shop takes a trade in, they are doing a huge favour for their customers.

1. Taking in kites that need checked for repairs, and photographed.

2. Kiteshops have to pay VAT on anything they sell, and stand by it. So if they Give you £200 credit for your old kite , They have to add at least 20% to that, to cover VAT and credit card charges. Not to mention if something happens it on the first few outtings that they are responsible for it as the seller.

3. If it doesnt sell quite quickly , then is de-values , and the shop loses money on it.

4. Shops will usually do all this for free. Kite stores have to make a living. On used equipment its unlikely they make anything but a loss.

As an interenet store, with just a little bricks and mortar office above our cafe, we used to aleays take trade ins, but we try to avoid it now. If we must we will , but customers will almost always get better money selling direct on the forums or fleabay.
mark wrote:In this sport there has always been that group of people that get upset at the fact that some people are actually making a wedge out of this sport, and believe that those that are 'only in it for the money' should be landlocked and castrated for daring to make money out of something that should be given to them at no cost so they can have cheap fun. If there were as many people kitesurfing as riding mountain bikes there would probably be a variety of kit available at different costs to suit everyone's wallet, but unfortunately everyone would then be bitching all the time about how crowded the water is with all these 'newbies' getting in the way....which in itself is quite funny seeing as there is more water than land on this wonderful planet!
Well noted. Thankfully this does not apply to a huge chunk of kitesurfers. Do you go out for Dinner, then complain to the waiting staff that, you could have bought that bottle of wine and fillet steak for 1/2 the price in tecos. No (well may be you do), because you know there are costs and taxes involved with getting that steak cooked and on your plate then having that wine poured for you. Most things bought in retailers/service providers from a cup of coffee to wallpaper , have at least 50% mark up. Those items bought in specialist stores usually have even more as sales volume is low. Kitesurfing kites and boards get nowhere near this, On average the margins are so low it would shock a lot of riders. They should get 50% like many other retails business, but they simply dont.
blue_eyes
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Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:07 am

dbinit wrote:A couple of real interesting points raised here . Great thread...
Open to trading up your kite as part of the deal on the next £1200 one then is it?
what taking my kite at a cut price deal as a trade in and then flogging it with another 150 on top ? i can do that myself
banned wrote:(All kites we take in part exchange we sell at the same price or take a hit on them!!)
My good old "friend" banned is spot on here, and probably underselling trade in deals. What many consumers forget is that when a shop takes a trade in, they are doing a huge favour for their customers.

1. Taking in kites that need checked for repairs, and photographed.

2. Kiteshops have to pay VAT on anything they sell, and stand by it. So if they Give you £200 credit for your old kite , They have to add at least 20% to that, to cover VAT and credit card charges. Not to mention if something happens it on the first few outtings that they are responsible for it as the seller.

3. If it doesnt sell quite quickly , then is de-values , and the shop loses money on it.

4. Shops will usually do all this for free. Kite stores have to make a living. On used equipment its unlikely they make anything but a loss.

As an interenet store, with just a little bricks and mortar office above our cafe, we used to aleays take trade ins, but we try to avoid it now. If we must we will , but customers will almost always get better money selling direct on the forums or fleabay.
mark wrote:In this sport there has always been that group of people that get upset at the fact that some people are actually making a wedge out of this sport, and believe that those that are 'only in it for the money' should be landlocked and castrated for daring to make money out of something that should be given to them at no cost so they can have cheap fun. If there were as many people kitesurfing as riding mountain bikes there would probably be a variety of kit available at different costs to suit everyone's wallet, but unfortunately everyone would then be bitching all the time about how crowded the water is with all these 'newbies' getting in the way....which in itself is quite funny seeing as there is more water than land on this wonderful planet!
Well noted. Thankfully this does not apply to a huge chunk of kitesurfers. Do you go out for Dinner, then complain to the waiting staff that, you could have bought that bottle of wine and fillet steak for 1/2 the price in tecos. No (well may be you do), because you know there are costs and taxes involved with getting that steak cooked and on your plate then having that wine poured for you. Most things bought in retailers/service providers from a cup of coffee to wallpaper , have at least 50% mark up. Those items bought in specialist stores usually have even more as sales volume is low. Kitesurfing kites and boards get nowhere near this, On average the margins are so low it would shock a lot of riders. They should get 50% like many other retails business, but they simply dont.
you could have a higher mark up in shops if your kite manufactures hadn't started dumping all the kites at the end of year and destroying the second hand value of the kites we buy.So when we come to buy a new kite our old one is worth nothing so we have to look for a huge sum for a new kite with no real resale value.So if we had a second hand market for our kites maybe you would not have to "do us a favour " as we could sell our kites recover a chunk of cash and then the new kite does not seem so expensive.....the sport diving industry did this a few years ago but now divers pay expensive prices for kit but have a good second hand value ....shops make there markup and all is happy....this industry should take note and stop moaning and remember we ain't your "cash cows"....money is to hard to come by....you need to maintain the whole industry not just how much a new kite is.
marktward
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Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:53 am

you could have a higher mark up in shops if your kite manufactures hadn't started dumping all the kites at the end of year and destroying the second hand value of the kites we buy.So when we come to buy a new kite our old one is worth nothing so we have to look for a huge sum for a new kite with no real resale value.So if we had a second hand market for our kites maybe you would not have to "do us a favour " as we could sell our kites recover a chunk of cash and then the new kite does not seem so expensive.....the sport diving industry did this a few years ago but now divers pay expensive prices for kit but have a good second hand value ....shops make there markup and all is happy....this industry should take note and stop moaning and remember we ain't your "cash cows"....money is to hard to come by....you need to maintain the whole industry not just how much a new kite is.
Personally I don't buy into all this. Maybe manufacturers should get a better handle on demand, under produce, to keep new and second hand prices high :roll: Do you think 2nd hand values would be kept higher if manufacturers kept surplas stock prices higher...or would they just be left with a warehouse full of stuff they cannot shift?

If you really think a 2nd hand kite is worth say 30% less than original RRP then why are you selling? To have the latest design...because it is better...or because you are a fashion icon and must have the latest? Personally I think that most kites manufactured these days should last a couple of years, so the 2nd hand value should be based on their condition, not their age. A season old kite used by local hotshot always going for the latest move is probably gonna be trashed compared to same kite flown by Mr average who gets his kicks out of cruising up and down for a few hours to forget about the office, doing the garden and finding the dosh for his kids Xmas presents....all these things are relative. If you are one of the guys/girls that gets out at every possible opportunity, the chances are your kit will get more use than the average kitesurfer in 3 years, so after a season who's 2nd hand kite should be worth more? The upside is though that Mr Mustgetoutallthetime is getting serious improved value per usage compared to Mr Average, if they both get new kit every year.

Reality is you can by designer kit from TX max at vastly reduced prices, not this months fashion but hey, we all have our favourite T shirt.....they don't sell it for love, they do it for money, at severely reduced prices compared to original high street release prices. Like mountain bikes, with fashion you can buy a frock for £150, or £5000, the choice is yours...I wonder if they have a forum to whinge on?

On top of that most diving kit designs are well established. A bottle, as long as it is still certified, will still do the exact same thing 20 years after manufacture, as will a demand valve that is well maintained...its the things like suits, flippers, you know, all those perishible things that need replacing when they wear out, these need replacing.

Mark
Living and playing is a suny Scotland
bonda
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Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:42 pm

Marktward - great posts

As the sport gets more established (as per windsurfing) and the large leaps each year in kite inovation make way for small refinements, then the desire to have this years kit is likely to decrease. This, in turn, will reduce the quantity of good second hand kit available and hence force up prices.

However, kites will always have limited value once they are several years old, as the current main material used in the canopy (ripstop) will never have good longevity
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waverider
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Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:48 pm

bonda wrote:Marktward - great posts
Round of applause for Mark.
Tony
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Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:13 pm

This thread has been split, the last two days posts are now in the Flame Grill!

Tried to split it the most sensible place, apologies if some posts got moved that shouldn't have!

Would be good to keep it on topic without the handbags :wink:

Tony
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fatfish98
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:30 pm

Tony wrote:This thread has been split, the last two days posts are now in the Flame Grill!

Tried to split it the most sensible place, apologies if some posts got moved that shouldn't have!

Would be good to keep it on topic without the handbags :wink:

Tony
Shame to have split up THE best post for ages......it needs those extra pages to make it what it was!
What's the point of putting them in the flame grill?.......people just go over there to read them :roll:
Tony
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Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:31 pm

Yeah, shame on me for running this heavilly moderated forum :roll:

T
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